Curse

jazilla · Mar 18, 2011, 07:40 AM // 07:40

I used to go into dungeons as an Assassin with 7 other human assassins. We have an unfair advantage over a human assassin with 7 merc assassins so i don't think that they are an advantage. I have beat everything in PvE with heroes and henchies, barring the things that are impossible(Mallyx, Urgoz The Deep etc.) with only heroes/henchies. At this point in the lfecycle of the game I don't see this as a problem. If John Stumme keeps content coming out regularly, and things like this help to keep content coming out for the game and we get skill updates on a more regular basis etc. then I am totally fine with it.

Improvavel · Mar 18, 2011, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I guess what I'm trying to suggest is difficult for me to word because I'm not really on this side of the fence.

I think the perspective is that when you purchase a game, you're receiving content. That content includes new professions, new skills, new weapon skins, new areas, new challenges, new heroes, etc. And a big difference is that it can be sold in a store. You can physically go and buy a copy of "Factions". You can't buy a copy of "Mercenary Heroes". See what I mean?
Although it is an "advantage" to own an expansion, that's not the selling point and obviously not the intent. The selling point of these heroes seems to be "cosmetic" and "advantageous". When you sell something that enables a person to do elite content by his or her self, that seems like a different issue.

But again, this is me trying to clarify something that I don't necessarily buy into.

Is it something that isn't doable by other means in game?
No. You can have 8 of the same profession party in game already and in a superior way.

Does it allow players to complete areas that otherwise they couldn't?
Again, no.

What if instead of being just mercenary heroes it was a pack with other 3 god realms and mercenary heroes?

Would it then be called an expansion and be just fine?

Why does an expansion have to be new maps/areas?

EPO Bot · Mar 18, 2011, 08:05 AM // 08:05

So then...if Anet introduces a free new necro or rit hero people who got the merc heroes are going to go nuts about being ripped off?

Kojima · Mar 18, 2011, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

Do you play console games? No, they aren't. Not by a long shot.

Hell, look at most other free to play MMOs...buying things in the cash shop not only gives you an advantage, but a lot of the time is required if you want to do anything past a certain point, and free players are not only highly disadvantaged but are very limited in what they can do and can access.

NCSoft is, with Guild Wars at least, nowhere near being the "most money grabbing" around.

I totally agree. GW is so much more friendlier than other games. At least you do not need to pay US$50 bucks for a pair of wings to fly a little faster from one outpost to another.

EPO Bot · Mar 18, 2011, 08:27 AM // 08:27

To be fair, those kind of scam games don't even qualify as MMO's anymore. They should be outlawed.

Iuris · Mar 18, 2011, 08:32 AM // 08:32

I'll admit that there is an advantage to mercenary heroes. However, the advantage is significantly overrepresented by the opponents.

-the only advantage that the mercenary heores offer is going from 2-3 heroes of the same profession to going to 7 heroes of the same profession. While this can be an advantage, we must not forget that this is still a question of the advantage of a single-profession team over a mixed profession team. While there may be an advantage, it's just not that big. Especially when we consider that the advantage also comes with weaknesses, too. After all, when too many people use the same skills from the same attributes, remember Power block, Complicate... Also, you lose the builds needing other primaries. After all, the N/Rt healer, Soul twisting protective spirit spammer etc. are also quite powerful.

-the advantages are quite minor and far from game breaking. We've had some other payable advantages, and we survived (storage panels, I'm looking at you!) - there was an advantage, but it was small

-no one seems to object to the advantages offered by campaigns, and those are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE greater than the shop ones. Try to build a good build with only Prophecies skills, and you'll suddenly see how wonderful skills we got with Factions. Try to finish Factions without heroes, and remember just how much of a difference the basic heroes of Nightfall make. Never mind the powerful Nightfall skills. And never mind the EotN PvE skills that are much much more powerful. And all these things were ALSO paid for, yet you hardly hear people mentioning them.

In the end, I don't really like it, but Anet has shown a lot of restraint with the advantages offered by the shop, which is reassuring for GW2.

Tommy's · Mar 18, 2011, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Guildwars has gotten very easy with 7 heroes (it was before aswell). I never bring melee, because mobs are already dead before they can reach things. All that 7 heroes really did improve is that there is more space for /P secondaries with Fall Back. And I don't need merc heroes for that. I mean even if these give an advantage it is very very little, because it could't possibly be easier.

There are only a few areas that the Merc heroes might have a bigger inpact, and that are elite areas. But doing DoA in HM with heroes is a big acchievement and would still take about 2+ hours. Thus people would prefer to run organised player groups, because they are just twice as fast (if not faster). We don't need to hassle words over FoW because it was dead easy anyway already. I can't say I have experience with UW nor Urgoz/Deep with the new 7 heroes thing, so I won't start over those.

tl;dr. This game is really easy, and Merc heroes make it a tiny bit easier. Nothing to worry about imo.

Feathermoore Rep · Mar 18, 2011, 09:07 AM // 09:07

I had an hour long discussion/argument over vent the other day regarding this very topic.

The main argument was the "in-game advantage paid by real-world money" part.

I protested with great earnest-y that no advantage was gained because you're only paying to play the game by yourself. Anything that can be done with 1 human + 7 mercs can be done faster by 8 real people and most likely by 7 regular heroes.

The only true advantage gained is when you create a new character you have immediate access to mercenary heroes, eliminating any need for terrible henchies and the need to grind for heroes through the campaigns.

This advantage is minimal when you considering that 95% of the GW population has already at least one character that has successfully completed the majority of the all the campaigns that he/she owns. Thusly they gain no value to the addition of 7 merc heroes.

That said the point of advantage for real money is moot because buying mercenary heroes is no different than choosing to buy an expansion or not (similar to what John Stumme said). GW is a standalone game. Technically its 3 standalone games with 1 expansion and miscellaneous addons. One can purchase just one campaign and play against everyone else in both pve and pvp. However they are at a disadvantage from not having near the same amount of skills; thusly buying an additional campaign is buying access to more professions and skills in addition to pve content. AKA you are buying an in-game advantage!

So to me, buying in-game content for money, regardless of how you define whats an advantage, has already been done before.

But if you think being able to clear FoW by yourself with 7 mesmer heroes in 45 minutes versus 7 regular heroes in a hour is "an advantage', then by all means go spend $45 dollars and buy all the merc hero slots. But lets face it, the SC team can do it under 30 minutes and the rest of us have already hero/henchied our way through all HM missions, vanquishes, and dungeons without 7 heroes years ago.

So yea if ANet wants to release minor content releases, and people buy them, by all means do more if it nets you money to put towards other content releases or GW2. GW is already a dying game, theres nothing wrong with milking the cash flow from the casual players still playing day in and day out.

majoho · Mar 18, 2011, 09:16 AM // 09:16

I don't really see it as much of an advantage if any at all.

Sure you might be able to take 7 of the same profession and do some major spiking or something but it's not like it affects anyone else.

I've bought pretty much everything in the store but I'm not getting this, I don't really see what I would use it for.

akelarumi · Mar 18, 2011, 09:42 AM // 09:42

The other side of the spectrum?

Whenever I need a change of scenary from GW I Play a game called perfect world. This game is totally free to play and to finish. The enemy's in the game drop coins you can use to buy certain items. But you can also buy gold with real life money. Giving you access to exclusive things. Some of them purely cosmetic, some of them purely for in game advantage and some of them do both.

It is possible to trade the real life money (gold) for the in game money (coins) with other players. There is even a special auction for it. So the game makes it possible to buy ingame money for real life money legally.

I just wanted to show this example to put things in perspective. It has always been possible to buy in game advantages in GW. I am talking bout the eotn preview weapons, the fire imp, the bonus mission weapons, but also simply buying a new campagin.

My second account only has factions and I can tell you it is rather difficult to solo play factions, specially when I compare it with how easy it is with my main account.

Last of all. This game has excisted for 6 years. It has been several years since EOTN came out. Most people are working on GW2. However they still take the time to deliver us new features and stuff for GW1. Those people are not working for nothing and Anet is a commercial company making money.

The advantages of using mercantile hero's are there, but it isn't higher then any advatage. Even without them it is is easy enough to finish the game, get 50/50 in HoM and get GWAMM.

If people want to spent money on something that is 80% cosmetic I say fine. It makes GW still profitable enough to spent some time in by Anet to improve it and develop new content. And that is something that benefits us all.

Spiritz · Mar 18, 2011, 09:44 AM // 09:44

To me it doesnt make any difference , quite a number of players have multiple accounts which they duel run anyway and having 7 heros either means they can just use the 1 account or they carry on dueling.
2 days after the update i was still using h/h even tho i could cover the 4 slots with extra heros/mercs.
Anet can say - yes its making the game easier with mercs/7heros but also they created a temporary money sink as players went out and bought runes etc for the mercs/heros.
As many will say - its you buying the merc pack from your own choice and isnt anet forcing you to.So in one hand anet is offering the chance to play how you want with a cost but on the other hand its your option to turn it down.
Players have been asking this for ages and anet finally bows down to them but adds
a cost - this mainly affects only the players who either fight with h/h or only have a few friends to play with and doesnt do pugs - others who team up all the time or do pugs wont have any real problems.
Btw i wonder if anets going to spend a bit of the revenue on getting a calender and a clock - just so they can get events dates/start and stop times correct :P

Silverblad3 · Mar 18, 2011, 10:23 AM // 10:23

It offers a significant game advantage, why?

1. It allows you to do things faster
2. Allows you to do things others cannot

At this stage of the game does it matter, not really Anet want everyone to get their titles fast so they can milk them more in GW2, simple business.

What I find really annoying is that they do not update PvP as often as they should and any new real content is rare. Yes fanboys you can say all the stuff against this, but it is true. What people are paying is easily enough for a whole new expansion/campaign. Hardly worth it at this stage of the game unless its a new expansion/campaign. Just be ready to be milked repeatedly in GW2.

Silver

TheGizzy · Mar 18, 2011, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverblad3

Just be ready to be milked repeatedly in GW2.

Silver

See, I keep hearing comments on par with this... or about the "slippery slope," or how this is "just the beginning of the end of f2p."

The last time a new category of product was added to the store was in December of 2009, when they introduced Costumes. It took over a year for them to add a new type of product... the merc slots.

This does not equate to milking the customers. Not even close. And how in the hell anyonecan interpret this as some sort of "trend" towards either a) milking customers through microtransactions or b) changing the company philosophy regarding in-game advantages via real world financial transactions, is honestly beyond me.

It is one microtransaction product among hundreds, if not thousands, they could have dreamed up. One. In over a year. For a game which is six years old from a company that has a new release based on the same lore coming out within a year.

This is not greed, this is not a trend towards milking, this is not a change in the company philosophy.... the sky is not falling. At most it is a way to satisfy investors while providing something fun & harmless to the community without, in fact, going against the developers' philosophy regarding BOTH microtransactions AND in-game advantages.

The men and women working so hard on GW2 and on GW1 deserve to earn a living while they do so. If adding some goofy little features that some players will flock out to buy keeps those developers employed, keeps the company afloat, keeps them working on a game most of us are anxiously awaiting... I'd say it's well worth it, and certainly in no way an indication that we're going to be inundated with microtransactions.

Bristlebane · Mar 18, 2011, 11:13 AM // 11:13

My opinion (owning a full set of hero mercs):

1. Biggest impact I've personally seen is the fun of having customized appearance and names of the merc heroes. I never ran more than 3 of same profession because I never felt it would be necessary. I only put more than 3 for making funny screenshots, not in any mission or explorable.

2. When they were first released I felt it might be an unfair advantage, but the more I played my mercs and read other people's reaction, I see no significant game play advantage right now.

3. I see no problem in Anet adding additional microtransactions. Sure, this caused a debate if it gives an unfair advantage but I doubt that's a trend. Adding the merc heroes was no doubt for profit, which I think is perfectly ok, because so far I've seen no conclusive evidence that merc heroes have given any big advantages.

4. Addition of Mercenary Heroes doesn't change my opinion on Anet, GW1 or Gw2. If any then it's a positive effect because it does bring bit new fun into an old game.

agrios · Mar 18, 2011, 11:18 AM // 11:18

I think the update is fine. It doesn't lead to any imbalance, cause even before heroes were first implemented, there were 7 mesmer/necro teams sweeping tru the elite areas and no one cried about that. Now most classes are more powerful than that - thanks to the power creep - and more so, 7 real players equals 21 big bad PVE elite skills. Mercs dont.

So, what's the problem?

There's absolutely no point in saying that merc heroes are unfair, Anet is evil, etc..

My only complaint it is about its price tag. US$45 its far from what I would call "microtransation".

Looking for the future, I mean GW2, I still have faith ANet will not go "Pay-to-win" business model. But I think their prices need to be seriously reviewed.

Microtransations are a great way to monetize games, but they need to stay MICRO.

Dafad Dhu · Mar 18, 2011, 11:22 AM // 11:22

In the closed thread, someone raised the point that anyone who has PURCHASED the game expansions has an advantage over someone who has not.
This was immediately countered with a "expansions are not microtransactions" reply.

So, let's consider GW microtransactions:

How many Xunlai storage panes do the naysayers have? If you have PURCHASED additional panes, then you have an advantage over people who haven't - extra space to store weapons / consets / armour / etc.

Was there an uproar when the option to purchase storage was released? Or when skill / pet unlock packs were released? Each of these purchases gives something which can be perceived as an ingame advantage.

I have no problem with people who want to play GW in its' most basic form (ie. with nothing but what comes on the original game disks), but I find it annoying when people complain about others who spend a few pounds to improve their enjoyment of their hobby.

gremlin · Mar 18, 2011, 11:35 AM // 11:35

If you could buy a game advantage in this instance "Mercenary heroes" and then take them into pvp and beat up on other players that would be unfair.

That is paying real money to gain an advantage over other players, paying money to gain an advantage over the AI in the pve game is completely different as it doesn't make my game experience any less.

There could be micro transactions that could be considered unfair but not in this case where any advantage is slight at best.

bhavv · Mar 18, 2011, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squishy ftw

Until I can bring a 3rd mesmer without having to pay for it, I will continue to find this a bullshit update.

Elementalist heroes can run panic too.

Or you can make a mesmer, or find a mesmer to play with.

Though I still havnt found any need to use more than 2 mesmers yet even though I have the merc pack.

The mercenary pack is not to blame for the games class imbalance in PVE with mesmers being so much more powerful than everything else, and Ellys being the worst caster profession.

shinta_himura · Mar 18, 2011, 11:39 AM // 11:39

It's still as bad as it was the first time this thread was made, and when we tried to discuss why, it was closed.

Stumme's opinion doesn't really count for anything.

*lemming* · Mar 18, 2011, 11:46 AM // 11:46

1. Advantages are minor
2. Anet needs our charity

I just summed up the pro-Anet side of the argument, right?